>> the question right here, and then -- >> with the brazilian -- the brazilian government has been putting money in the, brazilian development bank. it throw, below the line operations and people say that there is too much creativity in the fiscal accounts in brazil. so i'd like to know how comfortable are you with, with brazil and fiscal data? and secondly, the brazilian president has been asking for more fiscal stimulus in vested economies instead of relying only on monetary policy. do you see space for fiscal stimulation in countries like germany and the united states, for example? >> may i take the question? second part of the question? you take the first? >> okay. >> as i said earlier, at the

moment, we see the pace of fiscal adjustment in 2012 as broadly appropriate for those countries as whole. when it comes to 2013, however, i noted that in the united states we have addition of fiscal support in the deficit which will be excessive, even still for economic recovery. so i think these countries like you mentioned, germany and the united states, definitely have a fiscal home to respond to economic shocks. whether they need to use it now, it's -- as we underscored, there are some countries that, perhaps, could consider now as slowing down the fiscal adjustment. in the case of germany, as already was noted, the fiscal adjustment this year is relatively more. declining the deficit is here

nor germany. 0.2% of gdp. these countries are -- in case they are shocked, and then there are shocks they can support economic activity through, by slowing down the pace of current adjustment. >> sorry. yes. yes, yes. >> sorry. >> the question about -- >> right. there was the second part of the question. actually the first part was about the development bank in brazil. we've noted in previous issues of fiscal monitor about the importance of getting a sense, not in brazil but in general, about the overall impact of fiscal policy and the government budget is one aspect of that, but there are other elements in the public sector that also affect demand. and one of the things in a previous issue of monitor we pointed out is the importance of transparency. that governments make data available that allows one to come to an understanding of what the overall impact of the public

sector is on domestic edand and about what the risks soerngted with some of tomorrow forms of spending are. one is governments may be facing bresh pressure because of difficult market conditions to try to move to some more what we termed creative approaches towards increasing demand and increasing the role of the public sector in way that doesn't affect the headline fiscal numbers like the general government deficit or debt stock. it is the case in brazil that they've taken on an increasing role particularly over the last couple of years. in terms of stimulating demand in the economy. for us the important thing is transparency any that. as long as that information is available, people are able to make their assessments of what the overall impact to the public sector is. so, again, the main concern is one of making sure that there's adequate transparencies in these sorts of operations. >> okay. a question right here, and then a question right in the back. >> you pointed out at --

>> please introduce yourself. >> i'm sorry. i am from -- [ speaking in foreign language ] newspaper. in your presentation you pointed out that the advanced economies is second only to that which prevail during world war ii. as we all know, post-world war ii, usa was the just economy in the world. with steps taken by the usa to basically consolidate their fiscal position, do you also think that this would also lead to an addition of the usa as the world's -- in the near future? from my perspective, my question is related to the fact that the single biggest export market is the usa. >> i think there is an important point. there are people who argue that high public debt is a company that, with -- with lower growth

over the median term. i think it's, we also have started to indicate in this. so the question is whether high-debt countries like the united states will be able to continue to grow over the median term in spite of their very high debt? when you have a specific country with a lot of uncertain, interest rates are very low in the united states. so you don't yet see the impact on economic activity on private sector demand very high public debt. but over the near term it is an issue. that's why we argue that the countries with high debt, like the united states, should not just aim to stabilizing public debt at the current very high level. there is a need to bring down public debt over the median term. in this respect i would emphasize what i called circle that can be established by an increase in potential growth, which triggers an increase in primary balances, triggers a

decline in the states and, therefore, more growth. so i think one is to look at these possibility interactions between growth and fiscal adjustment also in a positive sense in the median term, but it is definitely an important issue. will is a need to lower public debt in the united states over the near term as well as in vast economies. >> [ inaudible ]. >> the issue. taken by -- regarding the -- >> all the measure. on the measures i said that what the united states is yet missing is a median term fiscal adjustment plan. of course, as i also noted, if not is done next year that would be a major tightening, because the measure introduced in the past would come to an end. but that tightening a single year would be too fast. so there is a need to establish a plan in measures to support

that plan. to bring down public debt gradually over time. and that should include reforms in entitlement, particularly health care spending. >> a question right there, and we will take one last question here. i'm afraid we will need to wrap up. one, yes. right there. >> i'm michael mcgrath from cambodia. i have a question about my country. you know, so far very high public debt, and suddenly the government approved increasing the new -- they need to borrow more for they spend, because the income is very low and they have to cover expenses, and my country always have some problem like a deficit. so what will this be, the rate, for economy in the upcoming

future if the government try to increase the public debt? >> again, i have to excuse the fact that i'm not very familiar with the cam bonbodian economy. in general principles, what was just said. the high level of debt, detrimental effect on the long-term growth and, therefore, although in some cases the country can, may need to increase to face large crisis and support demand, they should also plan for a decrease in this debt level. so as to allow longer growth. higher growth. i'm sorry. and an important point on this is to look beyond the debt. what is, for example, the tax regime and the spendings that the government does? has to be growth over the median

turn. this is one aspect. on the other hand also for growth is a need for structural reforms. the fiscal policy isn't sufficient in itself to determine growth, although it is fave ter. that i think would be the main element to consider. >> thank you. and we'll take one last question here. >> thank you. alex with the german -- 24. mine is a follow-up and a clarification on italy and spain particularly. if the projection is right that they will both miss the deficit targets in this year and in the coming year as well, if i understand you correctly, you're suggesting to the rest of europe, particularly berlin and brussels, to close both their eyes in case they miss the deficit targets because you think it will be dangerous and it would be bad for those economies to pursue some additional fiscal belt-tightening? do i understand you correctly? also, because, basically, if

they miss those targets they will also miss the rules, or break the rules, of the upcoming fiscal combine. >> as i underscored, there is a risk involved in focusing too much in balances. the fiscal balances not adjusted for the cycle. but that we have to keep in mind that the balanced budget rule that based on the fiscal compact has to be implemented in your area country is the defined in structural terms. so the fact that more and more countries in europe should focus on achieving targets on structural bashgszis, i think i acknowledged in the european union. regarding a specific target, i underscored a strong uncertainty regarding gdp growth in these

countries. but i think that particularly for 2013, focusing on targets rather than seeking adjustments balance would involve some risk. definitely. >> thank you very much. i'm afraid we have to end it here. thank you all for coming, and for all of the colleagues who have followed us online. thank you. >> thank you. chairman kent conrad today is introducing his 2013 budget resolution at a senate budget committee hearing. in a briefing yesterday to preview the resolution he said the proposal, similar to the simpson-bowles plan will reduce the deficit by about $5.5 trillion over ten years. he doesn't expect a vote today on the resolution saying that proposal is a blueprint for the futu

future. the hearing live here on c-span3 starting at 3:00 p.m. eastern. and coming up tomorrow, leon panetta and general dempsen giving an update on the security situation in syria testifying before the house arms services committee. live coverage starts at 10:00 a.m. eastern tomorrow. a discussion now on a new top secret spy center being built in utah that opens for business next year. as part of our spotlight on magazines series we're talking today about the recent cover issue of "wired" magazine, about the national security agency building a new and the country's biggest spy center. the author of that is joining us. the author of several books on the nsa as well. following the nsa for many years now. what is the utah data center? >> well, it's an enormous warehouse, basically, where nsa's going to keep all of its intercepts, all its communication that's intercepted

whether phone calls, e-mails, or tweets, whatever kind of communications it picks up it has a place to store them and then will serve as what's known as a cloud. in other words, agency listening post and headquarters from different parts of country will be able to tap into that communications that are stored there and analyze it. so it's a big storage center foreintercepted communications. >> why? why is this necessary? >> well, because nsa intercepts huge amounts of communications from all over the world, and you know, you've got a lot of communications you've got to have some place 20 put it. that's why they built utah. the bluffdale data center. >> how does this tie in with what is the role or responsibility of the nsa? >> well, that's what nsa's job is. basically three jobs. one is intercepting communications. the other is breaking codes an the third is making codes for the u.s. so in order to break the code, you've got to intercept the

communications, and that's what nsa's been doing since 1952 is putting satellites in space. ground stations. listening posts, and communications facilities like at&t, and sifting through all of this data. whether it's a phone call or an e-mail. looking for whatever targets are looking for. >> foreign nationals? >> looking for whatever targets. i mean, senator ted kennedy was a target for a while. he was on the watch list. couldn't get on airplanes without being frisked. anybody can be a target in the united states. up to a million people on the list and a lot are innocent people, there by mistake. a lot of there because they said the wrong word at the wrong time or were in the wrong place at the wrong time and had nothing to do with terrorism. >> history about the nsa. established by president truman on november 4, 1952, createsed to conduct post-war era code breaking as james bamford said.

two missions, gather add voer serie secrets and protect u.s. national security info. on the missions, sgather adversaries secrets. you write, in the lead graph, the cover of this magazine, that american citizens need to be watching what they're saying. are they spying on americans? >> certainly. that was the whole controversy over the warrantless ease dropping program under president bush, was eavesdropping on americans. the interstate was formed like the marines or other organizations formed for foreign wars, it was formed to eavesdrop outside the united states. marines aren't used to, you know, police the streets of the united states. and the nsa wasn't used to police the electronic environment of the united states. eavesdrop on u.s. citizen ps. was designed to eavesdrop on foreign countries, foreign governments and foreign people. so this is a big change. nsa switching to eavesdrop on

americans. it was -- it did that in the nixon administration. violated the law back then and violated the law when first created. for 30 years it eavesdropped illegally on u.s. communications until discovered in 1975. so it has a history of eavesdropping illegally on u.s. citizens, and then lying about it. saying that we aren't doing it when in reality they are doing it. >> are you saying, according to your sources, this utah data center they're building, won't be ready until 2013, what they're going to be doing, getting people's google searches, e-mails, telephone calls, et cetera, that that's illegal? >> well, there's a law called the foreign intelligence surveillance amendments act, determining what's legal and illegal, but nsa has its own internal guidelines on what it can do, which is top secret. so the definite of words. such as intercept. it's not the webster's dictionary definition. their definition of intercept, pull all of this information in,

but it's not technically intercepted until you actually live to it. so there's a problem of definitions. there's a problem of truth telling a lot of times with nsa. and there's a problem of, the capability to intercept so much information at all times. >> the nsa chief was asked about your story specifically. and what you wrote, and on the issue of american citizens. i want to show that moment in a congressional hearing just last month. >> does the nsa routinely intercept american citizens' e-mails? >> no. >> does the nsa intercept americans' cell phone conversations? >> no. >> google searches? >> no. >> text messages? >> no. >> amazon.com orders? >> no. >> bank records? >> no. >> what judicial consent is required for nsa to intercept

communications and information involving american citizens? >> within the united states that would be the fbi, lee. if it was a foreign actor in the united states, the fbi would still have the lead and could work that with nsa or other intelligence agencies as authorized. but to conduct that kind of -- of collection in the united states, it would have to go through a court order. and the court would have to authorize it. we're not authorized to do it, nor do we do it. >> james bamford what do you make of his reaction? >> again, the term was, interception. and nsa has its top secret definition of what interception means. and if you remember, just a few years ago, president bush was asked whether the nsa intercepts communications and he said, no. at the very same time they were conducting the warrantless eavesdropping operation. they asked officials back in the '70s about it and they denied

doing it when they've didn't doing it 30 years. the problem is nsa doesn't have much accountability. there is very few times the nsa director has actually asked to testify. this was just an off the hand, off the -- sort of off hand comment made by one congressman who happened to ask one question. and i think there really has to be a -- a really good congressional investigation on what nsa's capabilities are. what it can do and what it does do. >> so why is the utah data center necessary? why are they building it there in utah? >> well, they're building it there, i think senator orrin hatch had a lot to do with it. chairman of the senate intelligence committee for quite a while, and very powerful senator. plus, they've got the area. it's a very big area, this area where they're building it. it's a very open military base in utah, and also i think the

cost of electricity it cheaper there than soernl in maryland where their head were quarters is and a lot of other places in the country so there's a variety of reasons they put it in 2013. how much will it cost just to build it, 2 billion. how much will it cost to run it. you mentioned electricity. >> it will probably be i think $40 million a year, something like that to run it. it's hard to say how much exactly but around there somebody estimated. >> why is that such an expensive cost? what's going on that the electricity cost is that high? >> you need to -- several things. you need all of these servers to store the data. one of the big costs is the cooling. you have to cool all of these computers and all of these servers, all of these technological devices. you need to cool them. that take as lot of electricity

to run the cooling, the air conditioning. >> you mentioned computers. special super computer was built for the utah data center. talk about that. >> well, as i said, one of the nsa's jobs is code breaking. a lot of the information nsa is going to pick up to put in will be encrypted. it will be such as foreign military, diplomatic and u.s. encryption. there are a lot of communications people send every day, whether you are buying a book from amazon or sending credit card information, that's encrypted, personal information, legal information a lot of times is encrypted. there's a lot of encrypted information. in order to break a code there are two things that you really need more than anything. you need a lot of data. you can't break code if you have one message or two. you need see patterns. if you have 200,000 it's easier to see patterns. you need a computer that's going to look for those patterns and

sift through these combinations, called brute force. they need a computer that will do it very, very quickly. that's what they are building is the fastest computer in tennessee, same place they built the atomic bomb in world war ii. >> how fast is this computer? >> well, it operates at what's known at pediflop speed. i think it's quadrillion operations a second. around 10 quadrillion operations a second and trying to advance it 1,000-fold to zetaflop. i don't know what that is. it's very fast. >> you talk about the amount of data going through when you talk about -- everybody's e-mails and google searches and all of that. some of the terms that you throw out, i don't know if people heard of before when it comes to -- people refer to mega bytes

and how many bites? >> yoda bytes is the highest. they haven't created a term beyond yodabytes. if you translate it into pages it's about 500 quinn tillion pages of text. and you can store a lot of information in a billion -- or a facility that's a million square feet when you figure you can put terabyte on swiss army knives they have a blade that is a terabyte of data. you can put a lot of data in a building the size of the nsa data center in utah. >> here's a graphic in your piece with the look at the center and what will be in there. it will encompass 1 million square feet. who will work there and how many? >> building it is where most of the jobs come in. there will be about 10,000 jobs in terms of building this thing

for several years. >> contractors. >> contractors, yeah. then actually working in the facility there will only be maybe 200 at the most because it's basically baby-sitting the electronics, making sure everything is working, if something goes out, replacing it. the analysis will be done externally, done at nsa headquarters or nsa listening posts by a secure fiber optic link. >> this data center is top secret, what they do. the contractors had to be sworn to secrecy in order to get this bid. you talk about the groundbreaking ceremony where senator hatch and local authorities were there and said we're breaking ground but we can't tell you what's going on. how did you get this information? >> i've been writing about nsa for 30 years, the first came out in 1982, so i've done three books on nsa and numerous articles on nsa so i've been following it for many, many

years. i developed a great number of sources on nsa over the years. one of my key sources for this article, actually the most senior official i've ever interviewed who has gone on the record is bill benny. he was a very, very senior official who was basically the person who designed the entire worldwide eavesdropping network for nsa, he automated the network for nsa, and he left nsa soon after nsa began illegally eavesdropping on americans. he had been there almost 40 years, then he couldn't be there while they were doing what he considered illegal. illegal eavesdropping so he left and he told me that, well, he explained basically how nsa was doing all of this eavesdropping. and where it was doing it from and methods and how many i think he said there were something like 320 million calls a day

they were intercepting. so he explained the enormous capability of nsa, and he said at the end you know, we're this far away, put his two fingers together, about an inch apart, said we're this far away from a turnkey totalitarian state. this from somebody who was a senior official, equal to a general at nsa, had been there nearly 40 years. >> james bamford, investigative reporter wrote the piece. an author on the nsa's recent book, the shadow factory, the ultra secret nsa from the 9/11. robin is a republican in new haven, michigan. go ahead, robin. >> caller: i have comments to make. i hope i can get them out. i remember 15, 20 years ago hearing about this big mega computer system they had in belgium. i think this will put the belgium one to shame. the other comment i have is that

going back to hitler's time, the people that became ibm had a tracking and tracing system and that was how they were able to round up all of the jews and i think this is an outrage and i mean, you had general petraeus saying they are going to be putting tracking devices in our appliances, our microwave, our dishwashers, our phones, there is no escaping it. there's cameras on every corner. we live in the biggest police state, i mean it's incredible what our country has become. an overpowering system. >> is she accurate? >> i think there is -- the problem today is that you do have all of this technology out there and there's very few people that are saying no to it. there are very few congressional hearings on where we're going in terms of surveillance. i think it is a cross-party issue. i think republicans, libertarians and liberals are

all concerned about this issue. because 20 years ago, 30 years ago you couldn't do that. the only way people communicated was a regular telephone in your kitchen that was attached by a wire, or the mail. and the mail was sacrosanct. you couldn't open the mail. and today, everybody communicates by e-mail which is available to nsa, talk on cell phones as you drive down the street, tweets, all kinds of you know, go on facebook, look on google, page searches. you can pretty much watch a person for about a week or two you can pretty much get that person's life down pat by watching their electronic footprint for about a week. >> what about, though, that might -- information might not tell you much. what about the encrypted information. how easy is it to get that if

you -- to get into people's data on their discs or hard drives. explain that process. >> well, if it's enkrimted it's much more difficult to get in. what nsa or in other agencies, the fbi for example, would try to do first is try to find your password which there are various programs you can put out to find the password. then you get in, then you don't have to do the brute force. they would do that mostly on large scale encryption that they would want to get the entire network and how it works. but they would always try to subvert somebody in a foreign country that works on computers or works the network to try to get the information. but it is much more difficult, obviously, if it's encrypted. the problem with encryption, you can buy somen kription. to a large degree you have to have the person you're communicating with also have the